[A Conversation Between Korean-Japanese Scholars] Kim Woo-chang and Kojin Karatani Discuss East Asia

Two intellectuals representing South Korea and Japan came together: Kim Woo-chang (78), professor emeritus at Korea University and Japanese philosopher Kojin Karatani (74). The encounter was possible when Karatani attended the international symposium, "East Asia and the Idea of Universal Peace," recently organized by the Center for East Asian Peace (a center in the Yonsei University Institute of East and West Studies) to commemorate the seventieth anniversary of the end of World War II. The two scholars met for the first time in the U.S. more than thirty years ago and have continued exchanging their intellectual views.

The Kyunghyang Shinmun provided an opportunity for the two scholars to have a conversation at a cafe in Jongno-gu, Seoul on September 22. We wanted to hear what these men thought of the situation in East Asia where conflict and tension have continued for twenty years after the end of the Cold War and seventy years after the end of World War II and national liberation. The conversation lasted for more than two hours, and was moderated by Professor Park Myung-lim (52), head of the Center for East Asian Peace at Yonsei University Institute of East and West Studies.

Professor Emeritus of Korea University Kim Woo-chang and Japanese philosopher Kojin Karatani, Professor of Yonsei University Park Myung-lim (from left) discuss the situation in East Asia at a cafe in Jongno-gu, Seoul.

Park: East Asia is experiencing some turbulence lately. China held a massive celebration on its seventieth Victory Day and Japan passed a revised Security Act despite violent opposition. On the Korean Peninsula, North and South Korea stood in military confrontation with land mine explosions and gunfire. How should we view this situation?

Karatani: The fresh tension in East Asia recently is basically due to Japan. The Abe Cabinet seems to be the cause in stirring hostility among the nations.

Kim: I don't think the Abe Cabinet is solely responsible for the recent tensions. Tension occurs because there is a force great enough to create such tensions. South Korea, China and Japan have now reached a certain point of maturity. I think this contradiction of tensions and maturity is taking place simultaneously.

Park: Let's look at the situation in East Asia from the structural aspect and from the policy aspect. From the structural aspect, why are tensions heightening in East Asia when it's been twenty years since the end of the Cold War? When countries achieve economic development, usually, the region moves toward integration and harmony, yet in East Asia, the countries seem to be heading backwards, toward nationalism and military tension. I think it is important how we interpret this regressive phenomenon.

Karatani: Right now there is no country that has hegemony over the world. Even the United States is not a country with economic, military hegemony. In particular, when we look at the military aspect, we may have nuclear weapons, but we lack military forces. The current problem in East Asia is basically the confrontation over who will be the next to have hegemony, in other words, the confrontation between the U.S. and China. In particular, the confrontation between Japan and China was practically created by the U.S. In the 1990s, the Liberal Democratic Party tried to create an East Asian community and there was a strong tendency in Japan to remain on good terms with China.

Kim: In Kant's Perpetual Peace, one of the ways toward peace is a united coalition. Countries with equal forces share the awareness for a need for peace and create a union after efforts to create the same system. By equal, he means in terms of military and economic power. The current tension is due because we are in the process where countries with equal economic and military power are emerging. The power of China and South Korea is growing. In this respect, we can understand North Korea's efforts to possess nuclear arms--to obtain equal power with nukes. When these countries are on par with each other, military confrontation and tension heightens in the first stage. In the next stage, they realize that the tension and military confrontation do not work to their best interests and begin negotiating amid the tension to resolve it. After a peaceful system is established to some point, the countries move on to the next stage of demilitarized cooperation. What is important now is to acknowledge the efforts of each country to develop a relationship of equal strength while recognizing that that is dangerous. It does not fit reality to ignore the complexity of the process and just talk of peace and ideals.

Park: What about the policy aspect? In the 1990s and 2000s, South Korea, China and Japan all had a tendency to hold academic discourses, make policy efforts and organize cultural movements toward an East Asian community. China under Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao stressed East Asian exchanges and cooperation including diplomatic ties with South Korea, and Japan also released a series of statements such as the Tomiichi Murayama Statement, the South Korea-Japan joint statement of Keizo Obuchi, and the North Korea-Japan joint statement of Junichiro Koizumi. South Korea also worked hard to initiate and lead Northeast Asian cooperation under the Kim Dae-jung and Roh Moo-hyun governments. But as China emerged as a new superpower, such discourses on East Asia disappeared. China is trying to escape East Asia, as seen in expressions such as the "new superpower relations" and "one on one." Even in Japan, people are calling for a stronger alliance with the U.S. instead of a policy for cooperation in East Asia.

Karatani: Kant assessed the commercial spirit in a positive light when he talked of perpetual peace. He said that the selfishness that pursues profit paradoxically creates peace. He was able to say that because back then capitalism had not fully developed. But now, that commercial spirit in itself can trigger a war. Recently, it is not the state that creates the situation, but capital. Capital will do anything for its survival. China has developed economically, but because so, it is likely to become more dangerous.

Kim: You say that in the past, East Asia had a strong sense of community, but that also depends on how you connect the real situation with awareness. Tensions in East Asia are intensifying, but the trade relations of South Korea, China and Japan have grown closer. Our perception of the relations may have grown more distant, but the practical relationship has actually grown deeper. When we look at the two elements called capital and power, capital is flexible, but power is neutral yet dangerous. If it is used for a good cause, it is good, but for a bad cause, then it is bad. It is like fire. What is important is how we tame this fire. And it is true that capitalism has many problems, but it also expresses human desire in its own way. We need to realize that Adam Smith was also a moral philosopher. The "invisible hand" he mentioned was the market, but at the same time, it was also God. In other words, everyone had to take care of his business as he saw fit, but it was God that coordinated everything. But we only stress the market without mentioning God.

Karatani: That selfishness creates peace may be where Adam Smith and Kant meet. Adam Smith emphasized social welfare. He knew that at the time, and that may be why we can call him a moralist. But the current neo-liberalism is not the philosophy of Adam Smith. I don't think he is trying to say that there is a good side to capitalism. Perhaps in the distant future, but I think a simultaneous world revolution needs to be realized.

Kim: Changing the world through a revolution is ignoring reality. There have been no successful examples. The Russian Revolution, the Puritan Revolution, they were all failures. Forcing one idea claiming to carry out a revolution is dictatorship.

Karatani: If something happens in one country, it affects other countries, and that is why I mentioned a simultaneous revolution. Negri and Hardt talk of a world revolution by the multitude, but I argue for simultaneity, where the revolution occurs through one organization like the United Nations. I have been thinking of this issue quite specifically recently.

Park: I feel a difference and tension from your words. In today's context, what concrete actions can the individual countries in East Asia take?

Karatani: I would rather talk of what Japan should do rather than East Asia. Japan has the problem of Okinawa, where military bases including the US Forces are gathered. Japan's problem is the Okinawa problem. If Okinawa becomes an independent state, the renunciation of war can be realized. Okinawa's independence means that the U.S. has been expelled. If Okinawa becomes an independent country and Article 9 of the Constitution is realized, the situation would change in a major way.

Kim: Former Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama claimed we should establish an East Asian peace council and have it headquartered in Okinawa. What you just said about Okinawa is very important when we view the future, but it seems to be something in the distant future.

Park: Isn't there a way for East Asia to make an integrated effort based on the similarities such as the psychological commonalities or to restore the homogenous identity?

Karatani: When I met Kim in South Korea in 2006, you were giving a lecture on Confucianism. Confucianism was a philosophy of peace during China's Warring States period. China went through a long process of pursuing principles and philosophy until it became an empire. An empire could not be achieved with only the violence of war. It required a philosophy that would be a principle.

Kim: Confucianism needs to be reinterpreted and it needs to reflect on its faults. Confucianism emphasizes hierarchical order too much. The heavens are high and humans are low. The "yes" in Confucianism originally came from religion. In other words, one needs to have respect for cosmic order. It is connected to respect for life and the environment, and ecological philosophy. They are like the "respect for life" that Schweitzer mentioned, the "awe before existence" that German environmental philosopher Hans Jonas talked of. In terms of Kant, "I must act so that the actions can be compatible with maintaining the environment for all life." We can lean toward conservative reactionaries if we only talk of Confucianism without such thoughts. We need to connect Confucianism with democracy and other issues concerning the human mind, which the West has been interested in. The desire for peace exists in all corners of the world.

Karatani: In the West, peace philosophy is connected with Christianity, in other words in creating a superego. It is important that people learn shame. Expressing one's anger and pulling out a sword are shameful acts. Here, Western philosophy and Confucianism are integrated as to how they handle anger. How is one to manage anger in a civilized society? It is not ideal to respond in a barbaric way and take revenge. In other words, even if Japan opts to engage in a barbaric war, South Korea should not respond in the same barbaric manner.

Park: I would like to pose a slightly controversial question. If the U.S. withdraws from East Asia, how can peace be maintained? If the U.S. leaves, wouldn't Japan amend the "Peace Constitution" and focus on arming itself further? China, Japan, and Russia have maintained a balance on the Korean Peninsula due to the U.S., which has kept these countries in check. But with the absence of the U.S. these countries could intervene complicating the situation in the Korean Peninsula.

Karatani: If the U.S. leaves, wouldn't that bring peace? (Laughs) If the U.S. withdraws, I don't think China would pressure Japan like it is doing now. And the U.S. would not allow Japan's move toward the far right. China cannot become a country with hegemony unless it becomes a completely liberal system. The Netherlands, the United Kingdom, the United States, all these countries with hegemony were all liberal countries. China should be aware of that.

Kim: We should think about what will happen in China, but things may not always go as we think. This world of people doesn't always move that way. Just as obsessing about the past and ignoring the future is a problem, focusing too much on the future can also be a problem in resolving the problems of reality. We must be aware of the contradictions between reality and spiritual values and respond to today, to reality.

Park: Lastly, let's discuss the Korean Peninsula. The world's greatest armed forces armed with the best weapons are positioned nearby, and the powerful US Forces are also stationed here. There is also the uncivilized succession of power over three generations. What must the Korean people do to bring peace to East Asia and the world?

Karatani: Honestly, I don't have the ability to answer to Korean issues. All I can say is that both North and South Korea have a framework to think of only its relations with Japan. If they attack Japan, they may get nationalist satisfaction. But if a civil war breaks out, how will they handle such a nationalistic desire? It is the Korean War that remains a trauma to the Korean people. This cannot be compared with the issue of East and West Germany, which never engaged in a war against each other. That is why East and West Germany were able to reunite without much conflict. North and South Korea should realize that they are different. I think that the inter-Korean issue lies behind the issues with Japan.

Kim: To resolve the inter-Korean issue, we need to clearly recognize the reality and at the same time acknowledge the profound human values. We need to continue to figure out how to connect the two based on rationality and not ideology. It is the same with the issue of the succession of power. Regardless of whether it is good or bad, we must accept reality and think of how to resolve the problem. Even among ideals, some are good and some are bad, so we must constantly reflect, think, and adjust as we calmly view reality.

Park: You discussed broadly and in depth, South Korea, East Asia and the world, from ideology to issues of reality. Thank you very much.